The Trump Tapes: 20 interviews that show why he is an unparalleled danger
In more than 50 years of reporting, I have never disclosed the raw interviews or full transcripts of my work. But after listening again to the 20 interviews I conducted with President Donald Trump during his last year as chief executive, I have decided to take the unusual step of releasing them. I was struck by how Trump pounded in my ears in a way the printed page cannot capture.
In their totality, these interviews offer an unvarnished portrait of Trump. You hear Trump in his own words, in his own voice, during one of the most consequential years in American history: amid Trump’s first impeachment, the coronavirus pandemic and large racial justice protests.
This essay was adapted from “The Trump Tapes: Bob Woodward's Twenty Interviews with President Donald Trump,” by Bob Woodward. It will be published Oct. 25 by Simon & Schuster Audio. Reprinted by permission of Simon & Schuster Audio. All rights reserved.
Much has been written about that period, including by me. But “The Trump Tapes,” my forthcoming audiobook of our interviews, is central to understanding Trump as he is poised to seek the presidency again. We spoke in person in the Oval Office and at Mar-a-Lago, as well as on the phone at varying hours of the day. You cannot separate Trump from his voice.
In the summer of 2020, for example, when the pandemic had killed 140,000 people in the United States, Trump told me: “The virus came along. That’s not my fault. That’s China’s fault.” I asked him:
Woodward
Was there a moment in all of this, last two months, where you said to yourself, “Ah, this is the leadership test of a lifetime”?
Trump
No.
On the printed page his “no” reads flat, a simple declaration. Now listen to the audio of that exchange. This “no” is confident, dismissive, full of self-assurance. It leaves no doubt about the finality of his judgment. This “no” distances him from bearing responsibility.
Sound has an extraordinary emotional power, an immediacy and authenticity. A listener is brought into the room. It is a completely different experience from reading Trump’s words or listening to snatches of his interviews on television or the internet.
Trump’s voice magnifies his presence.
Consider this from my 14th interview with Trump, on May 22, 2020.
Trump
You’re probably going to screw me. Because, you know, that’s the way it goes. Look, [George W.] Bush sat with you for hours and you screwed him. But the difference was, I ain’t no Bush.
The mockery in Trump’s voice does not come through as powerfully or as memorably on the printed page.
In the “The Trump Tapes,” I share my personal reporting journey through the eight hours of interviews. I provide commentary at more than 200 points in the audiobook, explicitly offering my own reactions, hesitations, conclusions, and explanations of my method of gathering and confirming information.
When Trump came on the political scene in 2015, he was immediately a big presence, regularly making outrageous statements. He seized the attention of the media and gave regular interviews before and after he was elected president. But for someone who talked so much, he insulated himself from long and sustained questioning.
In our extended conversations, I was able to press him for prolonged periods and with dozens of follow-up questions. Trump agreed that all of our interviews were on the record and could be recorded.
“When did it become yes?” I asked about his decision to run for president. On his handling of the coronavirus, “What grade would you give yourself?” And about the presidency, “What have you learned about yourself?” In all, I asked him more than 600 questions.
I am also releasing “The Trump Tapes” for the historical archive. The content of the interviews was comprehensively quoted in my 2020 book, “Rage,” and some of the audio of the most dramatic news released. But the full exchange amplifies an understanding of Trump and the unique concentration of power in the presidency.
In these interviews, you hear Trump relishing the authority of the presidency and relying on his personal instincts as the basis for major decisions. It’s a self-focus that gets in the way of his ability to do the job. “I’m the Lone Ranger,” he said during our interview in March 2016.
At one point in early 2020, for example, I asked Trump about his relationship with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un.
Woodward
The CIA says about Kim Jong Un that he’s “cunning, crafty but ultimately stupid.”
Trump
I disagree. He’s cunning. He’s crafty. And he’s very smart. You know.
Woodward
Why does the CIA say that?
Trump
Because they don’t know. Okay? Because they don’t know. They have no idea. I’m the only one that knows. I’m the only one he deals with. He won’t deal with anybody else …
Trump
The word chemistry. You meet somebody and you have a good chemistry. You meet a woman. In one second you know whether or not it’s all going to happen. ...
Woodward
And is this all designed to drive Kim to the negotiating table?
Trump
No. No. It was designed for whatever reason, it was designed. Who knows? Instinctively. Let’s talk instinct.
This single-handed and impulsive approach — one that deeply worried and even traumatized his national security team — became a hallmark of Trump’s foreign relations.
Woodward
Do you get a sense he’s wooing you?
Trump
No, I get —
Woodward
Or building a relationship of trust?
Trump
— a sense — I get a sense he likes me. I think he likes me. Okay, so, you know he’s got a great piece of land. He’s in between Russia, China and South Korea. In the real estate business we’d say, “Great location.” You understand?
Woodward
I do. ... It is chilling to report on North Korea. I’ve looked in-depth at this. The secretary of defense sleeps in his gym clothes because he has an — do you know this? — an alarm and a light in his bathroom in case he is called to an emergency conference.
In response, Trump repeated disparaging remarks about his former defense secretary, Jim Mattis.
Trump
Mattis was the world’s most overrated general.
Woodward
I know, you’ve said that.
Trump
Oh, just terrible.
Trump did not understand the value of involving the CIA or the State Department in devising a coherent strategy for a new initiative with North Korea. He was going it alone.
I tried to take Trump as seriously as he took himself. I asked questions directly and did not adopt a hostile posture. While I pushed him and did not necessarily agree with his categorical declarations or self-praise, I let him have his say.
Trump’s voice is a concussive instrument. Fast and loud. He hits hard and will lower his volume to underscore for effect. He is staggeringly incautious and repetitive, as if saying something often and loud enough will make it true.
Trump
There’s nobody that’s tougher than me. Nobody’s tougher than me. You asked me about impeachment. I’m under impeachment, and you said, You know, you just act like you just won the fucking race. Nixon was in a corner with his thumb in his mouth. Bill Clinton took it very, very hard. I just do things, okay?
Though he shows his anger and grievances, his tone can shift quickly to engaging and entertaining. He laughs, ever the host.
These interviews also took place during Trump’s first impeachment. In late 2019, the House Democrats impeached Trump for a telephone call he had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that July. In the rough transcript of the call, which Trump later released, he asked Zelensky to speak to the U.S. attorney general about investigating his political opponent, Joe Biden, and Biden’s son Hunter. In more than 50 years of reporting, I had never heard of such a request from a sitting president. The transcript caused a political storm.
In an interview at Mar-a-Lago on Dec. 30, 2019, I pressed Trump in long exchanges on his defense.
Woodward
Do you want the policy of the United States to be that the president of the United States can talk to foreign leaders and say, “Investigate. I want you to talk to the attorney general about investigating somebody who’s a political opponent”?
Trump
No. No. No. I want them to investigate corruption.
Going back and forth for 30 minutes, he insisted it was just a request for a corruption investigation though the transcript clearly showed he wanted an investigation of Biden and his son. A listener will get a chance to decide.
I believe the tapes show that Trump’s greatest failure was his handling of the coronavirus, which as of October 2022 has killed more than 1 million Americans. In a 34-minute interview on April 5, 2020, three weeks after the country shut down, I presented Trump with a list of about a dozen executive actions his own top medical and scientific experts had told me were critical to mobilize the country against the virus. They had been unable to convey this information to Trump because he wouldn’t listen or wasn’t paying attention.
The list included improving the medical supply chain, coordinating with other countries, clearly defining an essential worker, establishing airline travel rules and coordinating with intelligence agencies.
In preparation, I had talked at length to Anthony Fauci, the country’s top infectious-disease expert, and Robert Redfield, then director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, as well as many others in Trump’s administration. Multiple officials had told me that the president was not listening to these experts.
Since Trump was willing to answer questions from me on any subject, I used the opportunity to press aggressively. Overall, I wanted to see if he had any plan.
Woodward
I’m telling you as a reporter, I’ll emphasize this again. They want a sense of World War II mobilization — President Trump up there saying, these are the 12 areas — this is the person who is going to come before you and tell you —
Trump
All right, I got you. I understand. I got you. I think we’re doing a very good job, but I’ve got exactly what you’re saying...
Later during the same interview
Woodward
This is a question about your leadership. And I just want to know how you feel about it. Second thing is the medical —
Trump
I feel good. I think we’re doing a great job. I think we’ll never get credit from the fake news media no matter how good a job we do. No matter how good a job I do, I will never get credit from the media, and I’ll never get credit from Democrats who want to beat me desperately in seven months.
Later during the same interview
Woodward
During the Nixon case —
Trump
Right.
Woodward
Nixon did not understand the goodwill that people feel toward a president. You know that is a problem now in this country, the polarization, no question. But —
Trump
Yeah, but the ones that like me like me a lot, okay?
Woodward
But, but people know this is a survival issue. People are talking about their kids, and they’re saying, “What kind of world are we going to give to our kids?” And —
Trump
They’re right. But Bob, when you talk about that — Nixon was an unpopular guy. I have great support out there, Bob. You don’t see it …
Later during the same interview
Trump
Give me the list of the things you said. Did you write them down, or not?
Woodward
Yes, I wrote them all down.
Trump
Read ’em out. Go ahead, read ’em.
Woodward
Okay, the first is testing.
In this April 5 interview, I listed all the recommendations and then repeated them at his request. But I hung up the phone feeling distressed. He didn’t see the virus as his responsibility and pushed a lot of the problems off onto the states. There was no management theory for how to organize an enterprise to deal with one of the most complex emergencies the United States had ever faced. The absence of leadership at the top was contributing to the nation’s inability to respond.
After the phone call, I turned to my wife, Elsa Walsh, who had worked for many years as a reporter for The Post and then as a staff writer for the New Yorker. She had been in the room during the interview. She spoke to Trump a number of times when he called me at home and was in the room during this call.
Woodward: What do you think?
Walsh: You were really shouting at him.
Woodward: I was. To get in a word edgewise.
Walsh: Your shouting, though, was really loud.
Woodward: It’s okay. It’s okay.
Walsh: You want to get more information from him, not–
Woodward: I know. Like this. I agree.
Walsh: — telling him what he needs to do.
Walsh: You kind of sounded like you were telling him what to do.
Woodward: Yeah. Well —
Walsh: You don’t want to do that.
Woodward: Okay. But we’re in a different world now, sweetie.
In the audiobook I also include excerpts of my interviews with Trump’s national security adviser Robert O’Brien, and his deputy, Matt Pottinger. Trump had told them to speak to me, even urged them to do so, making them his agents. I believe they would not have spoken to me about a sensitive, top-secret intelligence briefing without his authorization.
My discussions with them became a turning point in my reporting on Trump’s handling of the coronavirus.
During an interview with O’Brien and Pottinger on May 1, 2020, I learned that they had personally warned Trump about the magnitude of the threat of the coronavirus during a President’s Daily Brief on Jan. 28, 2020. O’Brien had told Trump that “this will be the biggest national security threat you face in your presidency.”
I was stunned. I had never heard of such a direct warning to a president.
I then went back and reviewed Trump’s comments to me and his public statements after that Jan. 28 warning. It was clear that Trump never communicated the magnitude of the threat to the American people. It amounted to a large-scale deception and coverup.
This was an earthquake in my reporting. I was 7½ weeks away from my publishing deadline for “Rage,” which up until that point dwelled extensively on foreign policy and North Korea. The new information from O’Brien and Pottinger about the top-secret, Jan. 28 warning shifted my focus to Trump’s handling of the virus.
I continued to conduct multiple interviews with O’Brien, Pottinger and others and was able to cross-check with firsthand witnesses. I was trying to piece together the chronology to establish the important decision-making points. The new reporting was evidence of Trump’s abdication of presidential responsibility. His self-focus was crippling.
A key interview occurred July 21, 2020, six months into the pandemic, when I again pressed Trump for his plan. To my astonishment, he said:
Trump
It’s flaring up all over the world, Bob. By the way, all over the world. That was one thing I noticed last week. You know they talk about this country. All over the world, it’s flaring up. But we have it under control.
The virus had been out of control in the United States for months. You hear Trump editing his own narrative. It reminded me of President Richard Nixon releasing edited transcripts of his secret White House tapes. They had extensive deletions. When Nixon personally edited the conversations, he directed his lawyers to insert “Materials unrelated to presidential actions deleted,” or, when there was profanity, “expletive deleted.”
It was Nixon’s way of saying he would tell only the parts of the story that he wanted told. Nothing more. This is exactly what Trump was trying to do.
He acknowledged that he did not have a plan and told me in that July 21 interview:
Trump
Bob, you’ll see the plan over the next four weeks.
Woodward
This is what —
Trump
You will see the plan, Bob. I’ve got 106 days. That’s a long time. You know, if I put out a plan now, people won’t even remember it in a hundred — I won the last election in the last week.
Woodward
No, no. But it’s not just put out the plan. It’s execute it, isn’t it?
Trump
No, I, I am executing it. You’ll see it starting.
I wondered how you execute a plan that doesn’t exist.
Woodward
People want their president to succeed. Now, you’re right. There’s some people who don’t.
Trump
No, no, no. I think you’re wrong. No, people don’t want me to succeed.
Woodward
No, no, but if you succeed, they succeed.
Trump
I have opposition like nobody has. And, and that’s okay. I’ve had that all my life. I’ve always had it. And this has been — my whole life has been like this. In the meantime, right now, I’m looking at the White House. Okay? I’m staring right at the walls of the White House.
I understood this to be his way of reminding me he was president.
Trump
I was unlucky with the virus, because it came in and whether it was me or anybody else —
Woodward
But you got it. You got it. The country’s got it. And the world’s got it. But you’re in charge of this country. And, you know —
Trump
We’ve done better than any other country. Just about, done better than any other country, in handling it. And it’s a bigger, more diverse, more difficult country. And we’ve done better than any — other than with the press. Other than with the press, I’ve done a great job. But with the press, I can’t do a good job because it’s fake. It’s fake news. It’s a fake group of people and you know it, and you won’t write it.
On listening to the tapes this year, I realized I had become entangled in the disorder of Trump’s presidency. An informal practice evolved. Knowing that he could and would call me at any time, I started leaving recorders around my house. Knowing that I could call him and inquire about anything — including the events of that day — was an unprecedented reporting opportunity. It was also unnerving. Trump became the primary focus of my life for nine months.
When “Rage” was published in September 2020, Trump said publicly that it was a “political hit job.” He also said:
White House press briefing
From the vantage of October 2022, it is, of course, impossible to know Trump’s political future. The midterm elections loom. The House committee on Jan. 6 is still investigating Trump’s efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and has subpoenaed him to testify. And many criminal and civil investigations into Trump’s conduct are ongoing, including into sensitive documents Trump took with him from the White House.
After Trump’s four years as president, there is no turning back for American politics. Trump was and still is a huge force and indelible presence, with the most powerful political machine in the country. He has the largest group of followers, loyalists and fundraisers, exceeding that of even President Biden.
In 2020, I ended “Rage” with the following sentence: “When his performance as president is taken in its entirety, I can only reach one conclusion: Trump is the wrong man for the job.”
Two years later, I realize I didn’t go far enough. Trump is an unparalleled danger. When you listen to him on the range of issues from foreign policy to the virus to racial injustice, it’s clear he did not know what to do. Trump was overwhelmed by the job. He was largely disconnected from the needs and leadership expectations of the public and his absolute self-focus became the presidency.
At one point in June 2020, I asked Trump if he had assistance with a speech he had given about law and order.
Trump
I get people, they come up with ideas. But, the ideas are mine, Bob. Want to know something? Everything is mine.
The voice, almost whispering and intimate, is so revealing. I believe that is Trump’s view of the presidency. Everything is mine. The presidency is mine. It is still mine. The only view that matters is mine.
“The Trump Tapes” leaves no doubt that after four years in the presidency, Trump has learned where the levers of power are, and full control means installing absolute loyalists in key Cabinet and White House posts.
The record now shows that Trump has led — and continues to lead — a seditious conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election, which in effect is an effort to destroy democracy.
Trump reminds how easy it is to break things you do not understand — democracy and the presidency.